Which one of these important Jewish entities should I shell out for?
Below is a copy of a letter I sent to the initiators of the Mikva proposal. I do not want to waste my time with repeating it so here it is:
4/13/08
Mr. xxxxx and Mr. xxxxxxx,
After reading the letter of appeal for the Silver Spring Mikva many thoughts went through my mind. In particular, the statement that references the importance of funding a vital facility that is so “dependent” on the future of this community. The troubling fact is that many hard working families are over burdened with other significant contributions that also play a vital role in the future of this Jewish community.
School tuition is through the roof and I do not have to tell you of the current numbers, as I am sure you already know. I have heard a number of younger members of the community state that they may not be able to have as many children as they like to due to the price it costs to teach them Torah. This thinking is quite alarming and pretty sad but also contradicts the main objective of the Mikva as you eloquently put in your appeal.
In your letter of appeal there is a point to request “all income-earning families” to support the new Mikva. In reading this statement I assume that “all income-earning families” includes the staff of day schools, rebbeim, rabbi’s of the community, lawyers, doctors, etc. To sum it up, the significance of building a facility that would support the “future” of the Jewish community is again at risk requiring the financial support from “all” income - earning families.
The years learning in different Yeshivas has taught me that Talmud Torah k’negid kulam. However, there is no requirement for “all” income families to pay tuition or at least something that they could afford. We have rebbeim and administrators that have many beautiful children who go to Jewish schools absolutely free. Does this make sense? We have Rebbeim and Adminstrators earning more money then some hard working families in the community who struggle to place their children in Jewish schools and on top of it must pay for the many children who get the “benefit” of free tuition. On the one hand everyone is urged to contribute to the Mikva (a vital facility for the future of the community) but when it comes to Talmud Torah the “everyone” is some how forgotten.
I support the building of a new state of the art Mikva for this community; however, our priorities are out of synch. It is heart wrenching to hear young families using the price of Talmud Torah as a method of “birth control”. It is unfair to see many heads of Jewish schools receive executive salaries for the most significant mitzvah of learning and teaching Torah. Let’s rethink the priorities and the unfortunate truths that many community members feel.
Chag kasher V’sameach
Concerned community member
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55 comments:
is it better to have more children and send them to public school, or less children and send them to a jewish school?
what kind of stupid question is that?????
What kind of stupid questions is that? Have you seen any questions on this blog that are not stupid?
DO you not realize that the rabbonim wrote the letter because the 2 mikvaos in the area are not enough for the frum community?
Oh okay..so I guess that means that we need to raise tons of money just to make some more. Do realize the cost of tuition???
Do you think the cost of tuition is any more here than any other city?!? Why don't you start a campaign across America and convince everyone that we should get rid of Taharas Hamishpacha in favor of tuition. What kind of ridiculous blog is this? I honestly cant believe you think your tuition problem is more important than a mikva. Maybe people should stop spending money on eating out...then you can afford to pay your tuition and perhaps help build the most important building within any Jewish torah community.
This issue here isn't whether to build a mikva or pay tuition. If I understand the issue here correctly, whats at stake is whether to build an "additional" state of the art mikvah, when many residents already have difficulty paying for their childrens tuition. If this is indeed the case. then blogger raises a very important conundrum
If you would read a little abit I am not gettign rifdof Taharas Hamishpacha!
But you are! because the mikvos in the area are not able to provide for the growing community! So, yes, you are getting rid of it! The community needs a new mikva because the 2 we have are not enough!
mark, lets hear some of your ideas how we can lower tuition
I agree, the people want to hear the voice of truth.................MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK! MARK!
oh, so you support mark? Dont you realize what kind of stupidity you are supporting? Did you even read his retarded letter?
MARK......Great job posting an anonymous comment voting for yourself!!!
clearly the last 2 comments were posted by the same person. mark's letter was genius and well needed
I think a multi-facet approach to dealing with tuition needs to been implemented.
1. Rethink salaries of Rabbonim -the hope is that these Rabbonim have time during the day and evening(by the way hard working attorneys, Drs, business people work extra long hours)I don't see why a Rabbi should not take his talent outside the classroom/admin. Let them gove speeches, write books, give shiurim etc..
2. Having a push for all community parents to push their local school systems to help subsidize for school.
3. Re-think tuition assistance to all parents including Rabbis of the community.
4. Explore communal trusts to aid in tuition that every "income earning community member should be subject to(sound familiar)
5. Cut down on the admins in schools and really look into the Headmasters and principal, officer salaries. It is appauling that Headmasters are earning 200k or more a year!!! This is Torah for G-d sake!! Look for yourselves at Guidestar.com.
Comments??
Yeah, comment!!....You clearly are missing several if not all pf your bolts and screw. Do Rabbis not have families to feed? Do you think they get any more of a tuition break then you do proportionate to the amount you own? No, they don't. They are struggling just like you! And you want to take away some of their income so you could drive your nicer car and spend more money on luxurious items? And rabbis in the school system spend their evenings preparing to teach your kids the next day? Would you rather they dont prepare and take on another job? Great! Now they'll be teaching your kids without having been prepared! Yeah, just like any other teacher has to prepare, so do they! And if they dont, and your kids are being taught by an unprepared teacher....send your kids to public school for free....they'll get the same education, if not better (in the English department). Dot tell me rabbis make too little. They dont make nearly enough to feed their families. And dont tell me they should have less kids, so they could save more money, so some dumb shnuk like you could go spend your money on your satellite TV. Yeah, that's a luxury. What kind of luxuries do you see these rabbis with? Wow, you clearly dont have your head on straight!
and how could schools lower tuition without hurting the families of the rabbis? They cant! What jewish school do you know that is not in debt? I dont know any "frum" school that is not. And you wont them to charge you less? You are nuts!
And headmasters earning 200K? Are you off your rocker? Yeah the headmaster of JDS makes 600K. No torah oriented jewish school has a headmaster with that kind of income. None! The headmaster ususally is the one who is hurting because the school is in debt. You clearly have not done your research on the subject and you are upset that you are jewish and want your children to have a jewish education. If i were you, id go talk to some people in the system and see whats really going on. You clearly have no clue how it really works, and all you know is that your wallet is hurting.
Guess what, my wallet is hurting as well. But i found other ways to save other than by blaming my children's education. I got rid of my TV, i got a cheaper car, i only buy food items when they are on sale, i hardly ever go out to eat(not there is anywhere worthwhile to go), i dont buy anything unless it is a necessity.
Mr Mark, try looking at yourself and see how you could improve before blaming others for your wants. Try thinking about the lives of the rabbis as people instead of worthless individuals who all they do is teach your children torah.... You know what, for what they do...they should have a salary of 500K!!! They are teaching TORAH!!! AND THAT IS THE ULTIMATE THING HASHEM COULD WANT OF THEM!!!!
Mr Mark(concerned for himself only),
What do you do for a living that hashem will be prouder of you than the rabbeim who taught your children Torah, after Meah V'Esrim (120 years)?
How much Torah have YOU taught your children?
Let's be clear and concise. You are just like the media, you take my words and spin it.
In my approach to the rabbeim, whom (for the most part) I respect and value, I no where indicated that they do not deserve 500k a year. However, I also think Police and Fire should also get that amount for the type of jobs that they do.
I know and I hope you do too that rabbaim do not choose to go into Chinuch for the money, However these days it is becoming a Money animal for admins.
Rabbeim have a wonderful thing for them that the United States offers, it is called Parsonage. This is a benefit that I hope they use.
I think admins and headmasters need to get lower salaries/bonuses this is Torah for Heaven sake!
Any Rabbi or Rebbe has the ability to make a personal decision to either drive around in a lexus or a Rebbe van. This is his decision and to argue that I want to drive around in my lexus is selfish and stupid. It is a decision that any adult can make and we are lucky that we live in a society that grants that decision.
If I see a Rebbe making 50-60k and his wife is pulling the same as a nurse, therapist, or even a teacher that is a nice amount of money, especially if they are claiming parsonage(which is their benefit). They get to see more of the 90-100k then I would if I were making that amount or more.
Then to have their kids go to Yeshiva or other school for a reduced fee is rediculous. They should be paying as much as anyone making that amount. To get "special treatment" is not fair in my book. It may sound :"mean" but it is called being fiscally responsible! On top of that, the Baal Habbas is subject to have less kids, but has to pay for more kids for the rebbe. What the heck, is his kids better to come into this world because he is a rebbe?
"What the heck, is his kids better to come into this world because he is a rebbe?"
Maybe because he'll teach his children torah(what hashem wants)
"However, I also think Police and Fire should also get that amount for the type of jobs that they do."
No comparison can be made...One is teaching torah(what hashem wants)
"Then to have their kids go to Yeshiva or other school for a reduced fee is ridiculous."
Just like when YOU apply, they evaluate the entire situation, so to when a rabbi applies, they evaluate HIS entire situation (including the number of dependents) and he does not get an iota of special treatment.
"On top of that, the Baal Habbas is subject to have less kids, but has to pay for more kids for the rebbe. What the heck, is his kids better to come into this world because he is a rebbe?"
THe baal habaas has the same right to have children as a rebbi does. EXCEPT the TORAH view is that we dont make decisions for hashem. When rabbeim are suffering financially, they dont stop having children without consulting a rav because to do so otherwise is assur.
Do you really know that you pay more PROPORTIONATE to the amount the the rabbeim do? No you dont! Because its not true! You assume it, but you have no clue! Like i said earlier....do your research on the matter and get back to me...
And if you find that the rabbeim are getting subsidized tuition...Did you ever think for a second that perhaps the school said to them, "we dont have enough money and instead of paying you a salary of XXXX, we'll give you a lower salary and a break on tuition? I've known many schools that do that. Mark, stop ranting and do some research on the matter:)
The only reason to have a state of the art Mikvah is to appeal to those who perhaps are thinking about going or have hesitancy about Mikvah's in general. I don't know if that is sufficient reason to build such a edifice or perhaps expanding existing ones would be more cost effective. In these dire financial times all avenues should be looked at including methods of reducing tuition. It does not help criticize those who are trying to have common sense prevail. Sure Taharas Hamishpacha should be viewed as being essential as is Torah school learning but one can get to ones destination just as comfortably in a Ford as in a Lexus. This applies equally well to building extravagant Mikvaos.
"The only reason to have a state of the art Mikvah is to appeal to those who perhaps are thinking about going or have hesitancy about Mikvah's in general."
That is not the only reason, and even if it was, that is plent good enough reason! To have even ONE chil who was born Bikedusha is worth every penny!!!
Common sense prevail? I believe you meant to say "amoratzis" prevail? Yes, sometimes it does help to criticize amoratzim! Although clearly, in this case, we are dealing with something with something off the "map"
I do not believe that we are dealing with Amaratzim here and I hope we are not dealing with a Taliban mentality either. Common sense should prevail and as long as it conforms to Orthodox tenets then we should accept it. An edifice that is the envy of the communities around us is not the prime purpose. Get real and check reality around you.
When you see people disagreeing with the rabbonim of the community for what THEY think is better...that is amoratzis! There is no other word for it! Daas torah overrules! yes, even mark concerns stupidity is overruled by daas torah! If the rabbonim decided that this community needs a new mikva, you have to totally stupid and crazy to come along and say, "i think those crazy rabbis are wrond....and, (wait, let me think a minute)....oh, i know, lets blame it on the cost of tuition...because why should the people who are teaching my children torah get paid a salary so they could feed their familes:)
Yes, that is amoratzis!
sorry, buddy, but i think you are the one that needs to "Get real and check the reality around you."
...The torah reality!
"common sense should prevaail" yes, you are right about that! But that is not common sense! That is common-silver spring-amoratzis sense, as there is nothing common about it.
"An edifice that is the envy of the communities around us is not the prime purpose"
Correct again! You are dooing well today! However, i dont think that is the goal and if it were, there is no chance in the world the rabbonim would have signed that letter. The purpose is to make a mikva that is capable of handling the everyday activity that a growing Jewish community like we have, needs.
I think you need to: "Get real and check reality around you."
To call the people of Silver Spring Amaratzim is the highest form of Loshen Horah and Rechilus. I personally think that we are one of the best Jewish communities in the country. It has always amazed me how so called Talmide Chachomim have a problem when it comes to keeping Shmiras Haloshen.
the rabbonim signed a letter that silver spring needs a new mikvah, but some disagree (yes, they have a right to disagree)and believe that the cost of tuition is a bigger issue. lets leave the bad talk about silver spring out of this blog, as it insults me and everyone else in this wonderful community. i am assuming that the anonymous post that spoke bad about silver spring does not live here, and is an outsider looking in.
What if the new mikva gets put in the school, and the school will profit from it, thereby lowering the cost of tuition????
"What if the new mikva gets put in the school, and the school will profit from it, thereby lowering the cost of tuition????"
NOW WE ARE ON TO SOMETHING!!!!
However, I do not think that would cover Tuition...good try I like that thinking.
Could someone post the proposed cost of the new Mikvah and what each family is expected to contribute? I don't think everyone has those details.
I don't think everyone has those details.
They have been posted in the shuls for the longest time. Which shul do you daven at? :)
I'm just joining this conversation:
What gives you the right to disagree with daas torah? If daas torah says something, that must be the EMES. How could one disagree with the Emes?
How can you think that your money is more important than taharas hamishpacha? How?!? I honestly cant belive that "you guys" think this is the best "jewish" communities in the country? how could you call it a Jewish community if you disagree with everything the leaders of our community say?!?
And why must that guy be an outsider? Why cant he just be a frum jew who knows that god set up the world in a manner that we have rabbis to look at and show us how to live our lives. If the rabbis said something, he lives by it and does it. (without finding excuses)
Yes, i have donated to the mikva as i have been asked to by the leaders of our community...and yes i have children who i must pay through the teeth to educate them.
the rabbis have decided for the community as a whole to donate, therefore there are individual cases where a person is spending alot on tuition and cant donate money towards the mikvah. so there are a few individuals who disagree with the rabbis....DOES THAT MAKE SILVER SPRING A COMMUNITY IN WHICH THE MEMBERS DISAGREE WITH LEADERS???? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Please dont judge our lovely community on a minority
right to disagree?
Who gave you the right to disagree?
What do you know about halacha?
Where is your semicha from?
The gemara in Bava Basra says that one Beis Din is not allowed to challenge the ruling of another beis din. This was in the days of the amoraim and tannaim, who were huge talmidei chachamim, were all knowledgebale in every aspect of halacha yet they were not allowed to argue on what another beis dinn said.
Here we have the rabbonim of the community who said something (yes, they are a beis din as well) and you come along and say you can argue and disagree with them? Who are you? Where is your rabbinic ordination from? Mehaicha Teisi?
Yes, we live in a society where everyone challenges each other. But that is in the goyish world, not when we are dealing with talmidei chachamim! You can argue with me about the redskins and you can argue with me about the car industry bailout, and you can argue about politics....but not when the rabbonim of the community said something! thats not allowed. So, no you dont have a right to disagree with the rabbonim!
You do, however, have the right to bring up this concern to them and see what they have to say about it, and perhaps they will change their decision...But to argue with them? No!
Since when is this a Halachic Decision??
There is no halachic shayla here!!
This Mikva was started by people/comittee. Decisions were made by people. They likely approached the Rabbanim to ask them to sign this petition of sorts but in no way was this an Halachic Shayla!
We have a Mikva or 2 that are kosher already.
This is about priorities not about Halacha!!
This is about another expense or a luxury not a baseline start of a Mikva!!
Stop being so frum!! don't quote Gemorahs out of context. Before making a huge pilpul start shtelling tsu the pieces first.
Good Voch
lets not make this into a "Im more frum so I am better", kind of thing. we are all jews so where is your bein adam lachaveiro (go ahead and make fun of this spelling.
I am not making fun of his frumness...
I am making fun of his stupidity!!
I dont think the gemara is out of context. If the gemara says that when one beis din says something, EVEN another beis din of rabbonim cant disagree with them.
Kal V'chomer, the "jews" of silver spring are not knowledgeable about to argue/disagree with the rabbonim of the community.
If the rabbonim did not agree with the paper they were asked to sign, they WOULD NOT HAVE SIGNED IT!!! if you dont like it, and you feel they are honestly wrong, why dont you call them up and discuss it with them. Dont try convincing others to also stray from the path of following in the footsteps of the Gedolim. If you really have a problem with something the gedolim said, call them or go talk to them.
I have most of their phone numbers as well as addresses. Whose would you like? Believe me, and i talk from experience, they will all be more than willing to discuss it with you. Yelling about it here will get you no where! They are all very kind and love to discuss these kinds of things with people.
And bein adam lichavero? What happened to the rest of silver springs bein adam lichaveiro when it came to Mr Pollard and Mr rubbashkin?
Gut Voch to all of you:)
http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c224_a85/Special_Sections/Education__Careers.html
The request for the details of the project seems to have been ignored. The family assessment is $2500. Does anyone know the goal set before construction can begin? Is $2500 enough or does it depend on Balei Tzedakas to pitch in. By the way in these dire financial times they are more and more difficult to find. It is important to divulge these plans. There are many Yunger Leit that have families B"H in our community and believe me they themselves cannot afford tuition so their parents are helping with some of the funds as they should. Thus the planning for the Mikvah, timeline etc should be made very clear because as an old adage says "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail".
where can we send money to for this mikva?
i need to give maaser money and i think this would be an excellent cause to support.
You are making fun of my stupidity?
Firstly, why would you make fun of me?
Secondly, why am i stupid? Is it because i know that the rabbonim in this community are wiser than me and they know whats best for me and pur community, and because i was raised by my parents, who were raised by their parents.... that daas torah is what we follow and that our rabbeim are our leaders and role models? Is that wakes me stupid that i am worthy of being made fun of?
Answer that, Mr Mark!
Mr mark, you are embarrassing the silver spring community as a whole!
You have shown everyone who reads this blog as well as everyone who is on the silver spring listserv that you could care less (unconcerned) about anyone other than yourself and your pocket.
Enough of this Mikvah talk. Maybe Madoff can help out here
So does anyone know where the Mikvah stands? How much has been accumulated, what is the timeline, what is the goal, where is the likely location. Has land been purchased. Has the town approved the project? At this rate it may take years before anything happens so $2500 is not much. But who needs a Mikvah that is 10 years away while those who have forked up the money are not going to be too happy waiting or perhaps will not need it.
Ahhhh Shasman, spoken like a true Talmid Chochom.
Wow, drekmitleiber! All one has to know is the news nowadays to be called a Talmid Chochom? Whos giving out that semicha nowadays? You? It must be widely accepted amongst the other rabbonim throughout the world, huh?
sir, do you have any of your own opinions? or do you just quote other peoples's opinion, and make fun of them?
There should be a Kol Koreh from all the Rabbonim to close down all the Kosher restaurants so that people will have more money to pay for tuition.
Oops I forgot the Rabbis get paid for the HASHGACHAS so forget about it.
"sir, do you have any of your own opinions? or do you just quote other peoples's opinion, and make fun of them?"
Sir,
Just because you dont LIKE my opinions doesn't mean you have to make fun of them. They are all my opinions, and because everyone here is anonymous, its the only way to reference who i am speaking to. I have many posts written above with all of my opinions, and so far, it seems i am one of the very few here who seem to agree with the rabbonim of our community. But, if you dont like that i am doing the ratzon hashem, keep it to yourself:)
Why can't there be a conversation without all the personal attacks. Lets all be mature and stop the hostility.
" without the hostilies"
Sound like the Palastinian Authority response to the back and forth of fire....funny
This blog was created for hostility! Hence it is all anonymous providing protection from Charim and Loshon Harah.
Maybe this can help make a dent in tuition.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/13/eveningnews/main4667504.shtml
someone asked a good question, how far did the mikvah get in its appeal for fundraising - i got the letter asking me for a pledge but have since not seen any information regarding how much is expected to be collected from that effort - at KMS there was a graph to show how much was collected to put in the kids playground, the mikvah is 10 times that amount if not more, can the mikvah please provide this community with information about how successful its pledge drive has been and when ground will be broken
im not sure the right people to provide that info are reading this blog, but if they are....please speak up!
i dont understand you guys! i came across this site while looking for some information on when the new mikva will be completed I'yh. My wife had an appointment this evening and spent TWO HOURS there!!! Why? because there was a line of people waiting! Why did that happen? because the mikvaos in our lovely community cant take the needs of our growing community. There is frequently a line! This is wrong for several reasons all of which were addressed by the rabbonim in their letter. The mikva is supposed to be relaxing and unhurried! How can our wives be unhurried through the process dictated by the torah if she has 3 5 people waiting behind her?!? Secondly, by the laws of tznius, no one aside from the woman's husband and the mikva attendant is supposed to know when a woman goes to the mikva. This is impossible with the amount of women who need to use our mikvaos everyday! There are not enough preparation rooms, there are not enough mikvaos, and with the limited number of rooms, we dont have enough time slots to allow each woman to go the process properly. I agree tuition is a problem in our city as it is in EVERY Jewish city. That doesn't make it right to forget about building a desperately needed mikva in our community. The people speaking here saying we dont need a mikva either have never seen our mikvaos, are not careful about taharas hamishpacha or honestly couldn't care about their wives and their valued time. To make our wives stand in line at the mikva like one does at the grocery store is disgusting and extremely inappropriate (not tznius). Anyone who knows the situation of our mikvaos can blatantly see how we are in dire need of a new mikva. Dont get me wrong though. I agree something should be done about tuition in every Jewish city around the world, but why must you attack a very good thing we have in the making here in our lovely community? We need this mikva badly!
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